My name is Brendan O ‘Brien, and first of all, we would like to acknowledge Australia’s first astronomers, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, the traditional owners and custodians of the land we are on. This episode is produced on Yorta Yorta country …  and we’d also like you to influence your local politicians to do more to mitigate climate change by moving from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources.

Each month, we produced two fabulous episodes on the first of each month. Dr. Ian ‘AstroBlog’ Musgrave gives us his monthly SkyGuide, plus a unique astrophotography challenge and an astronomy ‘Tangent’.
Then, on the 15th of each month, we publish an interview with a leading astronomer, astrophysicist, space scientist, data scientist, telescope engineer, project manager, or particle physicist, and we discover their science journey and rare insights into how they think, when they think best, and how they conduct their amazing research into exactly how our universe works.

Our audio files and transcripts are available on our website at Astrophiz .com and our MP3 files can be freely streamed or downloaded to your favorite device from our SoundCloud channel, our free audible stream, YouTube podcasts and Apple podcasts.

And right now we’re zooming over 11 time zones to beautiful Northumberland on the English -Scottish border to find out about the intricacies of Space Law or Space

Governance, as she prefers to call it, and I can’t wait to hear all about it from someone who specialises and studies Space Law. Let’s talk with space lawyer, Ciara Guy.
Let’s go!

Brendan: Hello, Ciara.

Ciara Hello, Brendan.

Brendan: Today, listeners,we’re excited to be speaking with Ciara Guy, who has worked in the Justice system and Magistrates Courts. She’s overcome a seriously debilitating injury to complete herfirst law degree and now is an assistant astronomer at Battlesteads Observatory and is majoring in Space Law for her Master’s Law degree at Northumbria University.

For fun and fitness, holds a black belt in karate, so I won’t be giving her any trouble today. And look, thanks for speaking with us today, Ciara, from your home in Northumberland.

Brendan: Ciara:  Yeah, so I grew up in the Northwest of England, just outside Manchester. I’m now living in the Northeast of England, just outside Newcastle.
When it comes to space, my granddad always tells this story of how when I was a baby and a toddler, I would not go to sleep at night until I’d seen the moon. So he used to put me in my stroller and he used to have to push me round until we found the moon and we saw the moon. And obviously some nights the moon wasn’t there. So he just used to have to walk around until I fell asleep. So I suppose you could say it started there.

Throughout my childhood, going to all the science museums, things like that … it’s always just been a big part of what I enjoy. On the other hand, law maybe not quite as obvious. I got really good grades in a lot of my essay writing subjects in my GCSEs.
So that’s the UK’s version of like standardized tests at 16.

So I suppose at the time, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. Law kind of seemed like a safe A-level option. So that’s been the next bit. So 16 to 18. It seemed like a safe option. It seemed like I’d be good at it. And it seemed like it would be a good choice to get me into university. So that’s kind of where it started.

Brendan: Excellent. Cool. So could you tell us a little about those school days and your earliest ambitions? And If those earliest ambitions have changed, then evolved over time?

Ciara:  Yeah, of course. So I’ll start by saying school was not an easy time for me. And I know a lot of people will kind of resonate with that for one reason or another. When I was younger, I loved maths and physics, and I really couldn’t imagine doing anything other than math, science.

I think by the time I got to 16 I just felt quite directionless. I’d spent a lot of my teenage years up to that point just trying to get through each day,

just trying to get to tomorrow. And it was like one day I just woke up and I was 16 and I was being asked to make all these big life decisions.

So I guess at that point again, as I said a moment ago, it was almost like, “Well, I’m good at writing. What subjects will I be able to write in and do well in?”
And I think at that point, the ambition was just to get to university, to start building a future where maybe I hadn’t imagined one before.

And then, of course, this summer after my exams, I got a nasty bump to the head at a Blink 182 concert ,and that just completely changed where my life would go.

Brendan: Okay, look that Blink 182 concert after that you indeed went on and got your first law degree at the Open University and now you’re doing your Masters of Law at Northumbria at their University

Over the next two years, I spent a lot of time trying to get better, to get back to normal, which obviously just didn’t work. That isn’t how these things work. And I think it got to a point where I was just so frustrated. I was bored. I couldn’t really do anything.

That role, I have so much to thank for, it’s made me into a very confident, very empathetic person today.

Brendan: Outstanding! That’s fantastic. That’s beautiful Ciara. And that is just the start of this awesome journey.

Ciara:  That sounds perfect.

And you’re doing your masters in space law. Now, here’s a question for you, Ciara. How big is the field of space law? What are the main areas covered in your Masters program? We won’t be able to go through the whole lot, but a summary would be nice. And are you zooming in on a specific area for your Masters of Law?

Are you doing a thesis or is it all coursework? Tell us your story of your studies, please.

We have essay style assessments for each module we study, but the focus is very much on our personal Master’s thesis. So I’m currently drafting my proposal for my own Master’s thesis, which looks at Dark Skies, discussing Mega-constellations such as Starlink … So that’s those huge networks of satellites that we have in orbit, and how they impact on cultural astronomy.

Brendan: Yes!

Ciara But then one of my one of my friends, she’s focusing her research on first contact protocol. So what happens if or when we find extraterrestrial life? It really varies so much, but we are all encouraged to pursue our own passions, which is just really enjoyable. And it’s nice to hear everyone doing something a bit different in the industry.

Brendan:  That sounds like a fantastic course. Yeah, I love you zooming in on dark skies … it’s important to us here in Australia for lots of reasons. We’ll talk about mega-constellations later, but in our Indigenous Astronomy, they’re working hard to keep our skies as dark as possible.

Okay, Nine! So how did this huge field of International Space Law begin? Can you tell us just a little perhaps about the very first governance frameworks that were developed to regulate human endeavours in space?

Ciara Yeah so I think the most important bit is to go back to the start of the so -called space race.

Brendan: Yes!

Ciara: So we have Sputnik, the first satellite to be launched into Earth’s orbit by the Soviet Union in 1957. Four months later we have the US launching their first satellite.

In response to these space activities, you know, people would demonstrate that we can go to space, we can use space.

So in 1959 the United Nation’s General Assembly set up a Committee On the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, or COPUOS … and their purpose, still today, is to govern the exploration and use of space for the benefit of all humanity.

Brendan: Yep

Ciara: … and so, for some peace, security and development.

However, in Article 4 of the Outer Space Treaty – and I’m going to read this part out because I think it’s important to understand the context – it expressly prohibits states, so that’s countries, from placing in orbit around the Earth any objects carrying nuclear weapons or any other kinds of weapons of mass destruction, installing such weapons on celestial bodies, or stationing such weapons in outer space in any other manner.

So I think when we’re talking about the very first governance frameworks, they were very much ones intended to keep the peace and to prevent a full blown nuclear space war where nobody survives. Space technologies were in the very early stages. They didn’t really have to consider many of the space activities that we do today, but they really had to consider that impending threat of nuclear war.

Brendan: Whoaaar!  …  look, we’ll talk about that 1967 Treaty in a bit of detail soon, but first … Eight!  Are there any other International Treaties in place right now,and who are the signatories and how effective do you think they are?

Ciara:

  Okay …so when we talk about the treaties in Space Law, we’re typically talking about the five United Nations treaties on outer space. So the Outer Space Treaty, the 1967 one that we just discussed, that is still our foundational instrument for governing space activities. As we speak today, 115 countries are a party to the treaty.

And that includes all major spacefaring nations. So Russia, the US, China, India, the UK, and so on. Another 22 countries are signatories to the treaty.

So for example in the UK we have the CAP2207 UK Registry of Space Objects states they then have to share that information with an international register held by the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs. …. essentially elaborations on the Outer Space Treaty, on specialist matters.

When the Outer Space Treaty was written, many of the space technologies and capabilities we have now, or even 40 years ago, perhaps couldn’t have been foreseen or didn’t need addressing immediately. So these treaties have been introduced to fill the gaps.

Brendan: Hey, Fantastic. I didn’t realize there were so many of them.

Ciara: Yeah

Brendan: Thanks, Ciara. …Seven! … So let’s look at some case studies and that important 1967 treaty you’ve just elaborated on. I’ve got two examples of space law from down here in Australia.
One, a recent successful application and one abject failure.

The first is a successful regulation of launches by the newly minted Australian Space

Agency, whereby one of our startups, Gilmore Space, has recently been given permission to launch their first satellite. It’s a mission, a rocket they’re taking up from their launch facility at Bowen in North Queensland.

Okay, look, that’s a bit light -hearted, Ciara, but would you like to tell us about that Outer Space Treaty of 1967, and how it has shaped the world for almost 60 years now … and does it need updating?

Ciara: Of course … So, again, let us put ourselves in the minds of those drafting the Outer Space Treaty  …  You’ve got the Cold War … You’ve got nuclear weapons first and foremost … then you’ve got peace, scientific discovery and international cooperation.

There’s two space faring nations, two government space agencies … a handful of satellites. So we write a treaty addressing the facts as they are then.

Fast forward to today … we’ve got over 20,000 satellites that have been launched into space. We’ve got at least 10 ,000 commercial actors, undertaking some form of space activity, let alone the 70 plus government space agencies. We’ve got many satellites that are completely autonomous, so they rely entirely on artificial intelligence. We have companies offering space tourism or space flights to private individuals.

We’re facing new environmental threats. We have space debris causing collisions or space debris falling back to Earth. We have private actors procuring rocket launches. Space technologies and the whole entire space industry, in fact, has just advanced so, so rapidly and we’re struggling to keep up.

Many space lawyers would agree with me when I say that “No, the outer space treaty doesn’t need updating. It serves its purpose by providing us with those guiding principles.”

It’s kind of a reminder of how far we’ve come, and the mere fact that ‘space shall be the province of all mankind’. That’s article #1 of the Treaty.

Brendan: Yep

Ciara: So of course the next question is; “Well… how do you suggest we keep up?’

And this goes back to our framework of governance. We have the Outer Space Treaty at the bottom. That’s the foundation.

The Outer Space Treaty is a ‘hard law’ instrument, it is binding on all state parties. We are then increasingly building on this foundation with soft law instruments, so guidelines and regulations.

While they’re non-binding, states may choose to adopt them as a form of best practices and they can then entrench them into domestic legislation. So,  for example, we have COPUOS that we spoke about before.

They produce the guidelines for the long term sustainability of outer space

The long term sustainability guidelines consist of a set of voluntary guidelines aime at ensuring that outer space remains an operationally stable and safe environment, open for exploration and use by both current and future generations.

So we have guideline B9, for example, that recommends that states take measures to address risks associated with the uncontrolled re-entry of space objects, which perhaps NASA could have done within 1979.

Brendan: Heh!

Ciara: So by using these soft-law instruments, we can address contemporary issues without needing to amend the pre-existing treaties, because that in itself would be a very long and potentially impossible task because it requires a consensus, it requires everybody to agree on it.

And today, that just isn’t going to happen.

Brendan: Yep. Okay, that’s brilliant. Let’s continue our countdown. Six!

Now can we look at how individual countries regulate how their space industries function? I’ve mentioned how in my country. all launches have to be approved by our Australian Space Agency prior to the launch itself. Now why do countries do this and what’s the situation in the UK, Ciara?

Ciara: Yeah. So as you said before, to use your example, Gilmore Space were given permission by the Australian Space Agency to conduct their first orbital launch. That permission comes in the form of a license and there will be conditions for this license being granted. Each state is a little bit different, of course, but this is really where those ‘soft law’ guidelines that I just spoke about come into play.

If a state were to adopt long term sustainability guidelines, for example, they could make adherence to the guidelines a licencing requirement, so that would force commercial, or target state actors to adhere to international law.

It provides states with a mechanism of regulating all the space activities that are undertaken within their jurisdiction. And this is important, because that is a duty placed in Article #6 of the Outer Space Treaty

Brendan: Yep.

Ciara: So states will bear international responsibility for national activities conducted in outer space, and states have to authorise and continually supervise the activities of non-governmental entities in outer space

A key part there is ,states will bear international responsibility.

So for instance, if a private company’s satellite were to fall from the sky and land on your house, you wouldn’t be seeking compensation from the company. You would be seeking compensation from the state in which the object was launched. So you can see why a launching state would want to have some control over what private entities are doing.

Brendan: Yep.

Ciara: The UK is very similar. If you want to launch an object into space, you have to have a license to do so from the UK Space Agency.

Over here, we operate on a ‘traffic light’ system. Red means ‘You’ve got no chance’. Orange means, ‘Okay, maybe if you make these adjustments’, and Green means ‘Go ahead’.

Brendan:  Yep

Ciara: It also means that you have to, show that you’re capable of space launch, that you have the resources to do so and to do it safely. The likes of me or you, for example, couldn’t just say, “I want to launch a rocket. Where’s my license?” You have to be legitimate, and licensing is the government’s way of ensuring legitimacy.

Brendan: Fantastic. Thanks, Ciara. Five! Now, this could be a bit controversial. I have a concern about how the world’s research telescopes, both optical telescopes and radio telescopes, are being impacted by increasing numbers of those constellations you mentioned, those low earth orbit satellites.

We’re talking about both light pollution and radio frequency interference, and currently you mentioned, we’ve got 14 constellations I know of satellites up there in LEO in low Earth Orbit, and they’re from many countries and now you’re specializing in Mega-constellations, so I’m going to hand over to you.

Ciara: So we’re definitely varying towards my specialty now which is dark and quiet skies and you’re right to be worried. And you’re right to be worried. I’m going to focus on dark skies here, mainly because that’s my passion, but also because they don’t appear to get quite the same amount of attention. ‘Quiet skies’ are certainly important and that can’t be negated, and perhaps that’s why they receive so much attention.

So estimates indicate that by the end of 2030, there will be over 50,000 satellites operating in Earth’s lower orbit.

As we speak now, there are 18 satellite Mega-constellations under development, so from companies like SpaceX, Amazon, China’s OneWeb, amongst others. And that’s a combined total of over 26 ,000 satellites.

Brendan: Phew!

Ciara: This would mean that one in every 15 of the objects that we would be able to see in the night sky, would be a satellite. So you’d go outside, you’d look up, and it wouldn’t be stars, it’d be satellites.

It’s a serious problem, not only for people who just want to enjoy the night sky, but particularly for indigenous nations whose traditions and knowledge systems are based on mankind’s ability to interpret the stars. It threatens mammals and birds, such as songbirds and Harbour Seals, who depend on natural stellar constellations to determine their migratory paths and feeding areas. And of course, here I’m talking about the cultural impacts of mega constellations on astronomical activities.

But that’s not to say they don’t cause an awful amount of visual interference for optical telescopes too. Take the Vera Rubin Observatory, for example, in Chile. If all the proposed mega constellations were to go ahead without any form of mitigation, they estimate that up to 50% of their exposures would be severely affected. And that is just a huge loss of observational data.

Perhaps, there’s some comfort. There does seem to be some growing recognition for the issue. And that is always the starting point for regulation. It was considered by COPUOS’s Science and Technical Subcommittee last month, which is a great indication that dark skies are being seriously discussed at an international level.

We spoke earlier about how ‘soft law’ instruments are seemingly the wqy forward, so we can take a look at the ‘2024 Report’ by the International Institute on Space Law’s Working Group on Light Pollution of the Night Sky … a nice easy name there … the report suggested the potential for new guidelines,  that reflect a reasonable compromise between satellite operators and the needs of astronomers, that seek to limit the optical impact of space objects.  

 So these guidelines if they’re implemented into international licencing regimes, they’d require space actors to adhere to a set of best practices, aimed at reducing the amount of visual interference caused by their satellites.

So that might include designing satellites to be less reflective, modifying the orientation of satellites to minimize the amount of sunlight reflected, and … as well as providing positional data to astronomical facilities so that they can plan their observations according.

Bordering, kind of on the edge of space law too are human rights and land rights. So for example we have the 2007 Starlight Declaration, which calls for an unpolluted night sky to be considered an inalienable right of humankind.

The Starlight Declaration refers to light pollution that emanates from Earth-based man -made light pollution, so floodlights or any outdoor lighting really.

But me personally, I say ‘Why can’t we apply this to space-based light pollution, if that’s the environment we’re trying to protect anyway?’  

Brendan: Yep

Brendan: Yep

Ciara: I hope I’m making sense there. I’m saying that we have mechanisms for protecting our dark skies from Earth-based light pollution. I don’t see why the rights contained within can’t be extended to space-based pollution. Space law is underpinned by this principle of ensuring spaces for all mankind. Why can’t that same principle apply here?

Brendan: Great questions. Fingers crossed. Okay. Four! Can we go back and have a look at your Masters at Law program at Northumbria University? What have been the highlights for you so far? And is the workload manageable? And what’s next for you when you’ve mastered your second law degree?

In regards to the workload, right now I’m in between assessment periods so I’m able to indulge in the recommended reading and my own interest, which is really nice.

Assessment season is assessment season; you’ll start writing for hours every day, it’s a lot of time and effort. But again, when it’s something that you really love, it’s … it’s not that bad. And we’re given plenty of time to do it. So it is certainly manageable. Although, if you were to ask me this question in three months time, in the middle of dissertation writing, I might have a different answer.

Brendan: Heheh, Yeah.

Ciara: What’s next? Honestly, I’m not 100 % sure. My peers, they’re planning for internships, graduate schemes, even PhDs. I think for me, my next step will be to take a minute, and just really think about where I go next. As it stands, almost all the opportunities in the space law industry require significant relocation, usually to another country.

Brendan: Yep.

Ciara: And it’s not something I’m opposed to but I have a lot to think about in terms of like medical care, my support systems, those kinds of things. An opportunity can be accessible,  but that doesn’t always mean that it’s accessible to me.

There’s lots of different barriers that employers often don’t consider and sometimes that means that I just have to take a bit of extra time when figuring these things out. I have a really cool role at Battlesteads Observatory at the minute, as an assistant astronomer, hopefully soon to be Lead Astronomer. I really enjoy it, I love it, and right now I’m happy to see where that takes me.

Brendan: Fantastic! it sounds like an incredibly rich environment.

Okay, let’s keep going with this countdown. Three! It looks like you started your first law degree when the COVID pandemic was at its peak. Back in 2021,  it must have been incredibly difficult. How did COVID affect you and your family, and what was the impact on your studies, and were there lessons learned Ciara?

Ciara: Yeah, so I’m not sure if the kind of COVID language is uniform all over, but in the UK, if you were vulnerable to COVID, so if you had some sort of pre existing medical condition that made you vulnerable, you received a letter in February 2020 telling tou to ‘shield’ for two weeks. ‘Shielding’ basically meant, don’t go out, don’t go to work,  nobody in your household should be going out …

I received this letter. My mum received this letter, and of course my grandparents received this letter.

And then now, as we all know, two weeks turned into seven months of shielding. It was very isolating. It was very scary. But I suppose me and my family we  were all in it together. None of us could go out. And we were all very fortunate then to come out the other side of COVID.

Brendan: Yep …

Brendan: Thanks, Ciara. Wise words. Two! You’ve painted the big picture of Space Law, of governance. We’ve looked at some case studies and some treaties and your most current work. Would you like to tell us about some of the things outside your university studies that regularly bring you great joy?

I think it’s very easy, particularly for those who live in cities or heavily light blue-side areas, to feel disconnected from the stars and just from space in general. We have this natural wonder above our heads every night, you know, it’s the sky that has inspired art, literature, science, religion, since the dawn of humanity. It’s really, really great to be able to show that to people and to just connect with people over it.

Brendan : Lovely, great joy indeed. I’m lucky enough to live under Bortle 2 skies. And that’s lovely. It’s lovely. Thank you so much. One! … and liftoff !!So here we are.

Finally, the mic is all yours. And you’ve got the opportunity to give us your favorite rant or rave about one of the challenges that we face as humans, perhaps in space law, or as you prefer to say, space governance, perhaps inequity in representations of diversity or law career paths, or your own passion for space, or even that basic human quest for new knowledge.

The microphone’s all yours, Ciara.

Ciara: Carrying on from my last point, it’s easy to become disheartened when it comes to space. Whether you’re studying it, whether it’s a casual interest, whether you’re reading articles about it in the news, it can be a lot of doom and gloom.

It can be a lot of, well, this is happening, how do we fix it? It can present a lot more questions than answers. And again, the only thing I will really say is ‘wrap up warm and get outside on a clear night.’

If you can, go somewhere far away from light pollution and just look up, there’s so many smartphone apps now that can help you to just navigate the skies really easily. Learn about the constellations, learn about the stories behind them.

When you have all these little things going on in your life, it can be easy to get caught up in it all. There’s something quite calming about the vastness of space, about how we’re a part of it all, a real sense of connection, not just to nature, but to one another. We’re all one mankind under the same sky.

You can understand why. For millennia, humans worship the night sky in one way or another. It’s just, it’s beautiful. Just go outside and look up.

And I think that’s the message I’d like to finish on.

Brendan: Fantastic, and let’s keep worshiping it.

Ciara: Couldn’t agree more.

Brendan: Okay, look, just before we go, is there anything else we should watch out for in the near future? What are you keeping your eye on?

Ciara:   So I’ll definitely be keeping my eye on mega-constellations. There’s a lot of talk around them at the moment, especially as more and more are being launched into orbit, and I think a lot of the focus right now will be on the threat they present to the growing space debris problem.

There’s only so much usable space in low-earth orbit and with tens of thousands of satellites, many of which are no longer operational or controllable by the way …

Hurtling around at 18 ,000 miles per hour, the risk of collision and damage is just increasing exponentially. It will be really interesting to see how different states, different international organisations approach debris removal as they are beginning to, and just how feasible it will be in practice.

Brendan: Fantastic. Yes, I think I’ve heard a term called Cascades of Collisions where one collision can trigger hundreds more. We haven’t reached that stage yet, but it is apparently just around the corner.

Thank you. Look, I’ll be indulgent here. Can I have one final question, please, just before we sign off?

The law and governance and doing your Masters, it means dealing with, as we’ve heard, really complex and multi-layered issues. Can you tell us, for you … what circumstances or situations are required for you to do your best thinking?

As well, and I think this is the most important, is your body needs fuel. Your brain uses up so much energy just thinking about things, it needs fuel to thrive. I notice this especially in assessment season …

I get so hungry and I notice a huge ability, a huge difference in my ability to think when I’m stopping regularly to fuel my body. Even if it’s just something little or a nice drink, it’s so easy to become fixated on the work you’re doing that you just forget to eat. It’s even better if I can, you know, step outside for a minute and get some fresh air and move around a little bit before going back into focus mode.

But I think look after your body, fuel it, it needs food, it needs fuel when you’re thinking.

Brendan: It sounds perfect. Silence … classical music and great fuel.
Very good advice for all of us.

Well, thank you so much, Ciara Guy. I’ve loved this on behalf of all of our listeners and especially from me. It’s been really exciting to be speaking with you and just hearing how huge that field of space governance is.

Thank you especially for your time and especially for your grueling schedule and good luck with your next assessment period. Pressure will be on again, we know.

And you’ll finish off your Master’s degree and good luck with your next adventures and your refuelling and getting outside and showing people the stars and all your future travels. Thank you so much, Ciara.

Ciara: And thank you Brendan, I’ve had a wonderful time, I’ve never passed on an opportunity to talk about space. So thank you.

Brendan: Beautiful. Bye now.

Ciara: Thank you. Bye!

SFX: Brief Morse code snippet

Brendan: And remember, Astrophiz is free, no ads, and unsponsored.

But we always recommend that you check out Dr Ian Musgraves Astro Blogger website to find out what’s up in the night sky. So we’ll see you in two weeks when we bring you Ian’s fabulous SkyGuide. Keep looking up!

Music: ‘Radio Waves’