(Approximate times)

• 00:00 Introduction to Joschua Knüppe and his work
• 09:51 Joschua’s experience as a scientific advisor for Netflix’s The Dinosaurs
• 19:56 The process of creating scientifically accurate dinosaur reconstructions
• 30:08 Challenges of communicating scientific uncertainty in media
• 39:57 The influence of fossil evidence and environmental data on paleoart
• 50:11 Future projects and research in paleoart and paleontology

Summary

In this episode, paleo artist Joschua Knüppe shares insights into paleo art, the process of creating scientifically accurate dinosaur reconstructions, and his role in Netflix’s The Dinosaurs. We explore how scientific knowledge influences media portrayals of prehistoric life and the importance of transparency in science communication.

Takeaways

• Joschua Knüppe’s role as a paleo artist and scientific advisor
• The process of creating scientifically accurate dinosaur reconstructions
• The influence of scientific literature and fossil evidence on paleoart
• Challenges of communicating scientific uncertainty in media
• The importance of transparency and honesty in science communication
• The impact of media portrayals on public understanding of dinosaurs
• The use of modern techniques and research in paleoart
• The role of color, behavior, and environment in dinosaur reconstructions
• The collaboration between scientists and artists in media productions
• Future projects and ongoing research in paleoart and paleontology

Keywords

paleontology, paleoart, dinosaur reconstruction, Netflix The Dinosaurs, scientific accuracy, science communication, fossil analysis, prehistoric animals, paleo artist, dinosaur media

Hello and welcome to I know Dino. Keep up with the latest dinosaur discoveries in science with us. I’m Gareth. And I’m Sabrina. And today in our 472nd episode, we’ve got a new dinosaur named Kank.

speaker-1 (00:42.69)
Yeah, it’s a fish-eating dinosaur. We also have an interview with Yoshua Kanupa, a paleo artist and scientific advisor who we’ve had on the show before. Plus, we’ve got Dinosaur of the Day, Ooko Tokia, an armored ankylosaur. And our fun fact, which is that T-Rex is now the most valuable dinosaur fossil. It dethroned Stegosaurus.

speaker-0 (01:06.038)
Mm-hmm. ‘Cause there was that one Stegosaurus sold for a bunch of money. Yep.

speaker-1 (01:09.482)
Apex. We’ll get into it later.

speaker-0 (01:12.024)
I mean, it makes sense. T-Rex had always been the most expensive. It just took, I guess, for the next T-Rex to come up for sale for it to regain.

speaker-1 (01:20.204)
It was surprising to talk about stegosaurs being the most expensive.

speaker-0 (01:23.872)
Yeah. But before we get into all of that, of course, we’d like to thank some of our patrons for making our podcast a reality. And this week we have a new patron to thank, and that is Todd. Thank you very much, Todd, for joining our Patreon. And then rounding out our shout-outs, we’ve got Potta, Geraldine, Tiffany, Chris, Charybdis, Clever Girl, Mongol Warrior, Michael, and another Michael. Yes.

speaker-1 (01:49.006)
Two different Michaels.

Thank you so much for being a Dino at all and being part of our community. We hope you are enjoying being able to talk to each other on our Discord and getting our bonus content. If you want to become part of our community, then you can check us out at Patreon, patreon.com slash inodino, see if all the perks are things that you might want.

speaker-0 (02:14.808)
Hmm. And as of this release, there’s still a little bit of time to get a exclusive card through our backer kit in the extended what they call pre-sales period, confusingly, after the crowdfunding ends. And you can do that at inodino.com slash cards. And if you’re a patron, then you get access to the exclusive NanoTirana stuff.

speaker-1 (02:40.248)
Jumping into the news, we’ve got a new dinosaur, an uninloggiid, Kink Australis. This was published in the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology by Mateus Jay Mata and others. And uninloggiids were bird-like theropods related to Velociraptor. Their fossils have been found in South America, Madagascar, Australia, Antarctica. There’s at least eight species of them.

This new one, Kank, lived in the Lake Cretaceous about 70 million years ago in what is now Patagonia Argentino, is found in the Churillo Formation. The fossils were first found in 2018, but they were too fragmentary to be named a species at the time. The holotype is a single vertebra, but eventually more specimens were found, and some fossils found include part of the feet, five shed teeth, and vertebrae.

speaker-0 (03:29.518)
Could be worse.

speaker-1 (03:31.842)
Well, at least it wasn’t named just on one bone. So Kank is medium sized, estimated to be about sixty pounds or twenty seven kilograms and up to ten feet or three meters long.

speaker-0 (03:34.402)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (03:45.09)
Medium sized, that sounds really small to me, but I guess for an Unan Lagiad it was medium sized.

speaker-1 (03:51.798)
It’s similar in size to a greater Raya.

speaker-0 (03:54.806)
Yeah, Rheas reasonably sized, I guess. Yeah. But they’re alive today. So Well. For a non avian dinosaur, it seems like any if anything alive today, any bird alive today is bigger than

speaker-1 (04:08.514)
think when whenever we talk about medium or large size or small size, it’s in regards to their closest relative.

speaker-0 (04:14.806)
It’s true. Yeah.

speaker-1 (04:17.166)
‘Cause sometimes we’ll talk about a small sauropod, and a small sauropod is bigger than a medium sized loggy.

speaker-0 (04:24.214)
Or bigger than like a vehicle. Yeah.

speaker-1 (04:26.702)
All right, so the genus named Kank is in honor of a myth of the Ayana Kank, the southernmost group of the indigenous Tewelche people of Patagonia. Kank refers to an old giant Rhea or Rhea whose powerful running steps left an imprint of its toes in the sky, and that formed the Southern Cross constellation. And the species name Australis means from the south, which makes sense. It’s a southern hemisphere dinosaur.

speaker-0 (04:55.704)
That’s interesting because I remember the native people from Broom, Australia, had their legend of a giant emu bottomed man who walked on the beach and made the basically like tyrannosaur or other large theropod-sized footprints. And this one has a rea, which is basically like an ostrich. But instead of walking in the sand, it’s walking in the sky. Yeah.

speaker-1 (05:22.19)
Birds get around. So Kank is smaller and more grassile compared to other Unanlagids like Ostroraptor. It did have that large claw on its second toes. That’s one of their features and why they’re somewhat closely related to Velociraptor. So maybe Kank was an active fisher. It had a long snout, a lot of teeth, and a long, flexible neck, which would be good for fishing, similar to modern herons.

speaker-0 (05:51.478)
least we assume it would ’cause we didn’t find any of those parts. All we have is f feet, teeth, and neck vertebrae. they’re neck vertebrae. Okay. Yeah.

speaker-1 (05:58.168)
Vertebrae.

speaker-1 (06:02.19)
It had pneumatic cervical vertebrae, so air sacs in the neck bones. And based on the neck bones, it had special structures for muscle attachment and to protect neck blood vessels, similar to today’s herons with the complex neck movements. It also had small teeth that were not serrated. So another thing going for going after fish. Yep. It lived in a wetland environment with a lot of rivers and streams. So this helps show that this group were fish eaters.

speaker-0 (06:31.448)
The Unan Lagiads, or at least some of them.

speaker-1 (06:34.06)
Yeah, and Kank was also found alongside fish fossils, so there’s a lot of things pointing to the fish here.

speaker-0 (06:39.95)
Yes. Which is still evidence, by the way. Still admissible. People think circumstantial evidence doesn’t count, but it does. well then. Just means that it’s the circumstances. Like being fossilized by a fish.

speaker-1 (06:54.254)
I mean, it’s possible kink went for other prey too, because there were frogs, lizards, turtles, and mammals that lived around the same time and place. But there’s a lot of clues pointing to the fish. Mm-hmm. It would have had to watch out for mape. That’s a big mega raptorid that lived around the same time and place. yeah. Yeah. Be careful. There’s plans to dig more in the same area where these fossils were found. Hopefully to find more kink fossils. So it’d be cool to learn more about this potential fish eater.

speaker-0 (07:20.322)
Get more than some teeth, some foot bones and some neck bones. Yeah. We could confirm that it actually does have that long snout that people are assuming it had. Hmm. And in just a moment we’ll get onto our interview with Yoshua Kanupa, but first we’re gonna pause for a quick sponsor break.

speaker-0 (09:22.614)
And now on to our interview with Yoshua Kanupa. But as always, we have an extended version of this interview. So if you’re a patron, you can check out your premium content feed and you will see it there, along with a little footnote at the bottom of the show notes in the extended interview that tells you when to skip ahead to for the ad-free episode if you want to skip over this slightly abridged version. We are joined this week by Yoshua Kanupa, who is a paleo artist and the host of PaleoStream on Twitch.

Which is great handle. Is also the scientific advisor for Netflix’s The Dinosaurs, which came out earlier this year. And if his name sounds familiar, we talked to him in episode 403 about his graphic novel Europosaurus, Life on Jurassic Islands, which we very much enjoyed and we like the conversation too. So we’re happy to talk to you again. Thank you for joining us.

speaker-2 (10:12.46)
Yes, thank you. Thank you for the invitation.

speaker-1 (10:15.064)
So, what’s it like to be a scientific advisor for something like a Netflix show?

speaker-2 (10:20.654)
It’s hard to describe because as it should be pointed out, my part in this was absolutely minuscule.

speaker-1 (10:28.27)
It was enough to get you credit though.

speaker-2 (10:32.48)
Yeah yeah, they they gave me credit, which I honestly did not expect at all. So I I I should explain a little bit how this this all went down. Netflix, the dinosaur, is basically a direct continuation of Netflix’s other paleo documentary, Life on Our Planet, which we usually just call Loop in the community. And after Loop came out, a few days afterwards, Tom Fletcher, the main consultant.

of that show actually joined our Discord server. We didn’t even invite him or anything, but he came in, he he answered a lot of questions and so on. I protected him a little bit from the little nerds and stuff. And we had a really nice conversation about the show. And like I tried to give like really constructive criticism to to the Wolves thing. And sometime later

He approached me in direct messages, like, hey, could we have like a little talk about this and like go a little bit more into the nitty-gritty of your ideas? Like what could make this program better? And I think we sat down for like two hours or so, and I had a long list of points where I think, like, okay, this this I think you did really well. This could be better. This part here, please don’t do it again.

speaker-1 (11:57.292)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (11:58.484)
If you ever pick this up again. And yeah, I didn’t really think much about it at that point, although I he already told me that yeah, we want to work more in this direction. And yeah, that was basically my part. It wasn’t really like for the dinosaurs, it was more like for life on our planet in a way. But as I was told, my critique certainly was hurt and was.

speaker-0 (12:21.166)
Interesting.

speaker-2 (12:28.096)
incorporated. Like one of my main critiques and quite a few other people, like I I was basically a little bit the voice of the paleo community going back to Netflix in in this situation. And what many of us critiqued was that individual interactions oftentimes broken down to more violent struggles like like fights and and hunting scenes.

We’re basically stand-ins for like greater evolutionary narratives, which is just not what happens. Yeah. Like how animals like interact violently is oftentimes not like deciding the evolutionary fate of a who’s lineage.

speaker-0 (13:17.364)
Mm. Yeah. It’s not like this one’s stronger and therefore it survives.

speaker-2 (13:21.71)
This one has the brains, you know, like like and when Spinosaurus steps into water, it gets a a twenty percent melee damage buff. And that’s why it like can now overpower Kakarodontosaurus, you know. It’s it’s it was a little bit at times a little bit like like a video game in its logic or in its storytelling. Yeah. And I think they really, really improved in in that regard, with the dinosaurs. So yes, that was my part.

on the wall thing. And and we we should also mention there’s many, many, many, many more consultants on this show. Like the only reason I really stick out because I don’t have a doctor or professor title to my name. But yeah.

speaker-1 (14:05.614)
Well was thinking ’cause we know you’re a dinosaur expert. There’s there’s a lot of experts, but experts in different aspects.

speaker-2 (14:12.876)
Yeah, yeah. You you could say I’m I’m an expert to a certain degree on like how these animals might have looked. Although that again, like to only to a degree. I I try to be like a little bit of an expert in everything in this. Like paleontology is such a huge field.

speaker-0 (14:30.158)
yeah. Definitely. Did you give any feedback on how they looked, like what you liked and didn’t like from Loop?

speaker-2 (14:36.224)
A little bit, although that really wasn’t my focus. Because I think like I’m talking to Tom Fletcher, he’s paleontologist, he knows the shortcomings largely himself. I know from other people who worked with like Big Studios before that there’s always something being lost in translation. Like like I think it’s one of the biggest problems of like the the overall creative process with Big Studios that you have this this hierarchy.

Like the the the consultant usually cannot directly talk to the artists themselves. It always goes through producer and like art director and then trickles slowly down to to the artist. so it takes longer and less less precise and and it’s just just unwieldy the whole process compared to what you would need to really make it make it work for something like this.

speaker-0 (15:34.742)
That makes sense why so many of these documentaries end up looking kind of similar because they they have the starting point and it’s easy to say, well, this one did a pretty good job and then the artists know where to start from there. And if they’re not talking through a new concept directly with someone with a lot of new input, it’s yeah, it’s not gonna change too much.

speaker-2 (15:54.798)
Yeah, and of course also these big studios, usually all the artists working there or like the companies they they hire, like these are not dinosaur experts. Like they might have never done a prehistoric animal before. And even if it might have not been for a docum documentary, like paleo documentaries with a lot of CGI are such a niche thing. Yeah. So yeah. I I mean I I there’s always hope that we get a little bit more now.

But yeah, it’s it’s certainly not the the usual thing for for these CGI artists to do that are more used to like doing doing like Marvel movies and Jurassic Park or Jurassic World at best.

speaker-0 (16:37.804)
Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. For every dinosaur documentary, there’s probably five or ten dinosaur fighting, you know, scenes in various movies or things that look kinda like a dinosaur that people would draw from.

speaker-1 (16:52.846)
It sounds like they took a lot of good feedback though because I know they made like Tyrannosaurus seem more parental. That’s something we don’t we’re starting to see a little bit more of in dinosaur media, but it’s still pretty rare.

speaker-2 (17:04.977)
Yeah. No, I I I really liked many things they they did with this season, the the things they showed. There’s there’s so many more interesting behaviors and setups they introduce. And I I I think my one of my favorite parts is that they actually have like the first episode being fully on the Triassic. Yeah. And and even starting before we have proper dinosaurs, like like showing like the setup.

Okay, here we have the animals that would eventually lead to to dinosaurs. That is so rare to have. And I’m I know many, many people also were, for example, very disheartened by the lack of Triassic stuff, for example, in the new working with dinosaurs. Which has different reasons why that didn’t happen, but it’s it’s yeah, pe people still want to see this this stuff, even if we don’t have the

Giant therapods, giant sauropods and stuff. Not the not the weirdest things. Yeah, I I think the Triassic and early Jurassic segments might have actually been my my favorite in the dinosaur.

speaker-0 (18:15.448)
Yeah, ’cause even though I mean I really liked the Seam of Spinosaurus because it was sort of a modern take and they were they showed it like just getting completely outswum by a shark. It’s like that was in loop, not in the dinosaurs? I think I saw it in the dinosaurs too. But the

speaker-1 (18:25.853)
That was in loop.

speaker-2 (18:32.984)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (18:36.81)
Yeah. It’s just kind of a fun to see, you know, these modern interpretations of Cretaceous stuff. But it’s also yeah, I I agree with you. My biggest thing with prehistoric planet on Apple was it was cool, but it’s like it’s the Hell Creek. And then when they did prehistoric planet too, it was like more of the Hell Creek mostly. And I’m like, you know, there’s so much more of the Mesozoic to go through. And with the Triassic, too, like you were saying, there’s lots of interesting stuff there that isn’t dinosaurs. So if you’re not just limiting

If sure, if you limit just strictly to true dinosaurs, like within Dinosauria, and you’re not showing any other animals, yeah, the Triassic is kind of boring. But if you look at the Triassic and you’re looking at all the fauna there, it’s crazy. Like the n the variety all and the story too of how it leads to the true dinosaurs after the Triassic Jurassic boundary is really interesting to see the comparison. Like, well, why did the dinosaurs do better than these other animals that superficially look really similar or look

Like you were saying, you know, if you had like a video game buff, like why would a pseudo Sukian that’s huge and almost looks like a T Rex in some ways with big teeth and a big impressive mouth? Like, how could that go extinct? But this little goofy, two legged, skinny coelophysoid is doing great. It’s a it’s a really interesting story.

speaker-2 (19:56.31)
Yeah, yeah, no, no. I I there’s there’s so much cool cool stuff happening in the Triassic. Like yeah, there’s there’s nature itself like reinventing itself like several times over after the big extinction at the end of the Permian. but also like the the Triassic is f long. There’s there’s so much still happening there. one of the I like like like I I was I was pointing

happily at the screen when when it came up on on the dinosaurs they actually name drop the carnian pluvial event. Like I think that might be the first time something is like this has happened in in like a big modern documentary. Like I sure there there are smaller on on the side that are mostly like fossils and talking heads and so on. And I think they are actually very important. But like

these really big budget documentaries usually shy away from stuff like that. I mean that was one of the biggest critiques of prehistoric planet ice age how little they went into these scientific terminologies. Yeah. And and stuff like that. I mean there I I think there are other things in in terms of like science communication that are really, really good in Ice Age. Like each episode basically going into like

one of the phases or one of the aspects of like these glacial cycles, like the freezing, the melting, and and what that does to ecosystems. So I really appreciated that, but at the same time you’re also a little bit a little bit left hanging wanting to know more, because many of these creatures you don’t even have a name to. Yeah. So yeah, I I I think say the dinosaurs does does this really well.

speaker-0 (21:45.826)
Yeah, that’s true. It’s it’s always a fine line of like how much narration, how much explanation is there, because you don’t want to make it like you were saying, just a pure talking head, almost like a lecture. But you also need to add enough information that when you’re done watching it, you weren’t like, well, I saw this big bird thing attack this saber-toothed tiger.

speaker-2 (22:05.614)
Yeah, yeah, of course. it’s always like, but who even remembers that or who even wants to know? But there is always people who will remember and who will want to know. And like even if they are not like wanting to go into paleontology and stuff like that, like there’s there’s there’s like studies on like while kids like dinosaurs and learning all these complicated names, that is a big part of that.

Like like it’s subtle it’s like an a pool of knowledge that kids can accumulate that they suddenly have that the the adults don’t have. And and it’s so important for that. So like them being like, no, we want to create this this cool product for the wool family. So we shouldn’t make it too technical.

speaker-0 (22:55.747)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (22:57.25)
The adults wanna know too.

speaker-2 (22:58.74)
Yeah, true. Adults want to know too and it’s it’s it feels like profoundly anti intellectual the world notion. Which is his own can of worms.

speaker-0 (23:08.588)
Yep, that’s true.

I can’t remember with Ice Age if they did I really like one of the things I really liked in Prehistoric Planet was the first Prehistoric Planet was they at the end of the episode, I know they did in the second one too, they would spend a few minutes sort of going back and explaining how we knew those things and sort of getting some of the scientific nomenclature out there sometimes. But I don’t remember seeing that in Ice Age, but maybe I just

speaker-2 (23:33.678)
They did that too. They did it actually in all three epis seasons, but in the first season these segments were separate from the actual program, and you could just click on that separately on Apple’s website, while in the second season it was part of the runtime, which many people liked a lot more. and many people wanted to see more of.

speaker-0 (23:58.38)
Yeah, I was gonna say the ratio to me, I could have used more of that end piece because I remember when we were talking, I got to interview one of the producers for Ice Age, and I had like a long list of questions, like, was this real? Was this real? Was this real? You know, like what was this based on? What was this based on? But I only had a couple minutes to talk to him. So I got through like two of them, but I still didn’t find out like

This behavioral thing they showed, is that just because we know that a modern bear did something similar, or is there actually something in the fossil record that shows it? And that’s the kind of detail. It’s hard to get that information without talking to someone who worked on the show because it’s it might be buried in some paper somewhere, but figuring out how much of it is inference versus how much of it was scientifically informed and from where is super valuable information. Like you said, I think a lot of people would be interested in.

Hearing just, you know, like, yeah, this part isn’t so well backed by science, but we think it’s fun and it could happen versus like, no, there’s a fossil that like really shows this was a likely thing. Well

speaker-1 (25:00.918)
I say like on Netflix is the dinosaur, they had the singing and Kylosaur, and that was based on that paper that that we talked about on our show.

speaker-0 (25:07.372)
Fossilized hyoid bone.

speaker-2 (25:09.462)
yeah, yeah, yeah, the the Lyrynx. Yeah, potentially lyrics. Like I I a friend of mine who is like he’s working in Tepholymy, but he’s like kind of like a little bit like like a paleovocalization nerd on the side. He he’s a little bit skeptical about that. But yeah, I know there’s there’s there’s cool cool things happening in in that department, and that we even have like these big osophite hyoids like in in ankylosaurus, like in in several

speaker-0 (25:12.216)
Mm. Yeah.

speaker-2 (25:38.776)
generalizing at this point. Like we I I think makes it very likely that they would do quite a bit of vocalization. Also with with like their very complex nasal passages. Not necessarily like in as in the dinosaurs with the pyloroplitis that they have there. Unfortunately not name dropped. But like in prehistoric planet Tartia

in in Mongolia. There we have or also like some some North American ones like you Procephalus. You have like incredibly complex nasal pastures, also like nasal openings that look really weird and that make you think, okay, what noises would come out of that? Because they they are like speculating, this is maybe for cooling the breast and stuff like that, because they are like in like desert environments or like like like getting the moisture out of out of there before it’s like exhaled and and stuff. But

That would do more than just like help with thermoregulation.

speaker-0 (26:38.478)
Yeah. Yeah. And even if that it evolved primarily for something like that, it doesn’t mean it affected the way they sound.

speaker-2 (26:45.238)
Yeah, yeah, also because we have stuff like this not just in the desert species, but also in like the much more humid North American parts.

speaker-0 (26:53.676)
Yeah. So yeah, it’s hard to say chicken or egg, like what it evolved originally for, but it could be that once they had it in that desert environment, nobody else was gonna drop it because all of a sudden they can make these cool sounds that really impressed the the ladies or the fellas, as the case may be.

speaker-2 (27:11.178)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I to to go back to what you said earlier with with like these segments at the end of prehistoric planet like showing off like how do we know some things and stuff like that. I I I like that. It was too little, absolutely. Like like every segment I feel like should have had something like this. Yeah. Like I would like to know more about the Namact and and why you show Dino Kyrus this way, yada yada yada.

Yes. But I think that’s in general like one of the biggest weakness of most paleo documentaries, even the ones that don’t do not have like a huge CGI budget, and that is academic honesty and transparency. Like not just saying this is how we know it, but also saying this is what we don’t know and this is what we can only speculate about.

speaker-0 (28:06.636)
Yeah, yeah, that level of certainty.

speaker-2 (28:08.98)
Yeah, like I I wa I was part of an little documentary two no three years ago at this point. And we filmed like a longer interview for like I I think the world shoot was like like six hours or so. Like with with me like talking to the camera but also painting live and stuff like that like that. In the end, nothing of that got into the documentary. Mostly because on the cutting floor.

They decided to change the tra trajectory of the wool thing because the format was supposed to be more about the facts, the hard facts, you know, the stuff we know. And we and and me and the director, we were talking mostly about all the things we don’t know and all the uncertainties and and so on. Like really going into okay, yes, we know all of this stuff, but there’s so much more we have no idea about. And

Like the director too had like a different idea about how it how how the wool program could be, and then the higher ups were like no no no no no, not all this this wibbly wobbly stuff. No, we want to give the people like the hard facts they can bring up at dinner parties, you know? Did you know that about dinosaurs? Yada yada yada. And and yeah, it’s it’s it’s basically sucking a little bit the the humanity out of the field in a

speaker-0 (29:36.16)
scientific method in general because it’s it isn’t just like a list of facts.

speaker-2 (29:40.736)
It’s it’s baffling to me sometimes what is all shown to people and like sold as a truth, although we don’t know it. And I mean, I as a paleo artist that that is basically my bread and butter. I I sell illusions to people, like illusions of certainty. I don’t know if T-Rex really looked like this, but it looks plausible and it follows like

the scientific literature to a degree, but at some points the literature just stops and you’re left with a oftentimes huge gaping hole that you have to fill with creativity. Yeah. And that is just not accessible to most people.

speaker-0 (30:25.922)
Yeah. I think of that with with kids that I talk to. Sometimes they’ve got their favorite dinosaur. And sometimes the reason it’s their favorite is because a toy has painted a specific color or they did like a specific sort of interpretation on little spines it might have had on its back or some little detail. And you know, you don’t want to crush their spirits by saying, like, well, maybe they all had that, or maybe none of them had that, or that color might be wrong, or something like that.

But it’s interesting, you never know what people are going to latch on to that maybe to a paleo enthusiast might be obvious, like, we don’t know the exact good to acknowledge that in these sort of documentaries to be like, Well, we made them this color because we took inspiration from this bird, but that’s really where it starts and ends.

speaker-2 (31:02.51)
No absolutely.

speaker-2 (31:12.802)
Yeah, no, like there’s the yeah, the the emotional attachment that people form to certain ways of how we portray the past or individual animals is is so strong sometimes. I oftentimes do it the other way around when I to talk to small children. I absolutely crush their dreams right there. I’m I’m like

Brazer do it early than later when when their attachment has grown even deeper and they can no longer because then you get like like angry little people in the comments being like, why does it look like this? It should be like this.

speaker-0 (31:48.184)
You’re shutting them down before they get online as the

speaker-2 (31:50.574)
Yeah, yeah, no, like I I got a relatively late little sister and I taught her very early on about stuff like that and she grew up fine. So

speaker-1 (32:05.39)
So it works.

speaker-0 (32:08.686)
Good to hear.

speaker-2 (32:09.442)
Yeah, yeah. No, like I I what what I like to say always is when it when it comes to my line of work, learn to love the process, not the illusions is it creates. That also helps a lot with stuff like I might create artwork the other day and like today something comes out that completely changes how we imagine something. And when I’m like too much attached to the way

things look the way I painted them, then I will never be happy.

speaker-0 (32:42.946)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s a very good point.

speaker-1 (32:45.676)
In those cases you’re okay just start over.

speaker-2 (32:48.258)
Yeah, no, I’m I’m usually with with rare exceptions, I’m usually like, boy, more opportunity to do painting. You know? Like explore that once again. And I I think that is something that many, many people need to to learn that we oftentimes have to convince ourselves after new publications come out.

speaker-1 (32:56.351)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (32:58.337)
Like

speaker-2 (33:16.014)
To like something again because we are so used to aesthetics. We we oftentimes make arguments from aesthetics. The way something is portrayed can be just as important sometimes for the acceptance of science as the actual science itself. But I’m tasked to create an image of a new species.

One of the so first things I do is look in the section about geology and see okay what what else has been found here and what are the conditions, so the depositional environment, like how was this thing dep deposited here in this locality? And what does this tell us about the environment and so on? There there is so many information you can draw from that, even down to the coloration of the animal to a certain extent.

Because pigments found in the environment can travel up the food chain and will end up potentially in in your animal. Like like flamingos being pink because they eat all these little red crustaceans is like a famous example, but there are so many more where this is the case. And yeah, so that is always one of the first things to do.

speaker-0 (34:37.098)
I love that detail. Yeah. Thinking like, this animal might have been this color and it was in the same ecosystem as this other animal. So maybe eating it would change it its color.

speaker-2 (34:46.742)
Yeah, that that can have an influence, but also just like is it like an open environment or like a dense forest? Animals today like tend to have different patterns and gradients in their coloration based on what environment they they live in. And then it c goes to the like like you can like talk for hours just about coloration, but f another important thing is like does the animal see color or not?

speaker-1 (35:15.806)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (35:16.78)
And this is a constant question always with dinosaurs because yes, they fill all these niches that big mammals fill today, but mammals are largely colorblind, and dinosaurs were probably not, because crocodiles and birds see colors really well. Yeah, yeah, oftentimes better than us, like seeing into the ultraviolet spectrum, and so.

speaker-0 (35:35.052)
Yeah, maybe even better than us.

speaker-2 (35:46.73)
You have on the one hand that, but then again you also have to keep in mind that large animals, even non-mammals, usually get more blends the larger they get. So there’s a

A lot, a lot of discussion going on all the time in in regard to that. also in dinosaurs where we have soft tissue and and so on. Like there was the idea for a while that in heterosaurs we could see patterns in the scales because they were like larger and smaller scales, sometimes appearing like in clusters and stuff. So people were like, maybe the bigger like that means these scales.

Guys had spots and this guy over here had stripes and stuff like that. But when you look at modern day reptiles, usually scale size doesn’t really correlate with color. So another idea in the moment is that maybe this has a more like a functional thing going on here that the bigger scales are like more rigid parts of the skin, and the smaller scales are are the softer parts. So you have like integrated folding patterns.

That helps with the elasticity of of the skin and stuff. So super cool stuff.

speaker-0 (37:02.956)
Yeah. We did see. I remember Sabrina was recently talking about a paper where there was a sauropod and some of the pigmentation, and it looked to be that it had sort of a speckled pattern to it. And that’s something you don’t see because, like you were alluding to, larger animals tend to be more bland. And it seems like that is the primary way that paleo art takes it. They seem to take that as like the over because that’s what people are comfortable with. You see a T-Rex and it’s big and it’s sort of

brown or green, it feels right if you make it striped or you make it really bold colors with all sorts of, you know, variation on it. It doesn’t look like anything we’ve seen today. And it just seems and it also doesn’t look like famous depictions of it, I guess. then people might not have as good of a reaction to it. But I like the idea of like a Bronosaurus being colored like a giraffe or something. Just totally different than what you usually see. Yeah.

speaker-2 (37:59.502)
Giraffes are a weird case. And this is like going into color genetics and stuff like that, and and like how patterns are formed and and so on. It’s a it’s it’s very, very complex. I friend of mine is like a horse expert and he can like talk for hours about horse color genetics. It’s insane. Like whenever I do a horse, like I usually get like afterwards the comments, actually down there it wouldn’t be that tone because

Based on these and these genes, that is not really how it works. And if you have like a light lighter car part here, then you would also have lighter parts down here. Yeah. It’s really intricate. And the question then also is usually okay, okay, we know this about modern day horses, but how far in their evolution would that go back, these these things? And

speaker-0 (38:51.81)
Yeah, especially ’cause domestication has impacts on coloration too. And pretty much all the horses we have now are in a domestic I mean, there’s I think there’s a couple exceptions potentially, but most of them are on this domesticated lineage. So who knows how much that messed with their coloration.

speaker-2 (39:08.11)
Yeah, although apparently potentially not that much because we have this this cave art that actually shows some really interesting patterns and coloration that is similar to some modern day domesticated breeds. Where like for example, these these like very spotted horses, like that look a little bit like Dalmatian dogs. But stuff like this can also be found in cave art.

speaker-0 (39:23.379)
that’s awesome.

speaker-2 (39:37.6)
And like color genetics shows that genes for like this stuff appearing go back far enough that you would also have like spotted horses probably in in in prehistoric times. At least within the genus Equus.

speaker-0 (39:49.846)
That’s great. Yeah. It’s too bad we don’t have any cave art of dinosaur coloration. That’s true.

speaker-1 (39:52.782)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-2 (39:57.088)
That would make it so much easier. Then again though like like people back only a very limited palette to work with. I mean it’s it’s

speaker-0 (40:03.597)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (40:05.462)
It’s who knows how much creative liberties they would have taken.

speaker-0 (40:07.82)
Yeah, that’s true.

speaker-2 (40:08.706)
True, true that. Yeah. But yeah, like it’s it’s kind of a blessing that like most ice age mammals would probably have like a color palette that can be relatively easily reproduced with like ursin pigments yet that you find on your own doorstep. Yeah. You don’t have to like grind up laszuli to to get in br vibrant bruvaceri and stuff.

speaker-0 (40:32.747)
Yeah.

That’s a good point.

speaker-1 (40:36.782)
So since last we talk I mean, we you’ve mentioned a few projects that you’re working on, but I’m sure you’ve done many, many things because it’s been a few years, I think, since since we had you on the show. What are some of the projects you’re working on now that you can share?

speaker-2 (40:54.85)
One of the biggest things that is, at least from my side, already done is another graphic novel that should come out this year, probably in fall or a little bit later. It’s about an another locality. So with the Europosaur stuff, it was focused on the Langenberg query. And this one is about the Geiseltal open pit mine. Nowadays it’s a lake. but

No, it’s it’s an it’s an artificial lake. Many many of our open pit mines over here has been turned into into lakes, and it’s basically the eastern sister locality of Messel. Yeah. Similar preservation too, but it’s much less known, largely because it’s well, it’s eastern Germany, so for longest time it was like behind the Iron Curtain and stuff, and Messel so much more famous.

speaker-0 (41:32.952)
Nice.

speaker-2 (41:50.122)
and and so on despite the material from here being on par with with that what we what we have from Massel. And instead of Europosaurus our protagonist this time is a terrestrial crocodilian. Boveriucus which was like one of the apex predators of of this ecosystem.

speaker-0 (42:02.798)
Nice.

speaker-0 (42:09.582)
What’s the d estimated date of messel?

speaker-2 (42:13.022)
it’s it’s like fifty three million years.

speaker-0 (42:16.674)
Nice. So we’re getting some some more I w I wanna say modern, but that’s not the right

speaker-2 (42:23.906)
Yeah, Minozoic, it’s Eocene in age. So yeah, it’s it’s a little bit different environment from from Methel. it’s not like like like a lake where everything got stuck in it. it’s more like like a swamp in some cases, but also more open areas on so on. Like it it varies throughout the valley. There’s also a limestone plateau nearby where we have cave sediments. So we we know there were like

speaker-1 (42:24.216)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (42:52.962)
like actively forming caves in that region during the time of Bovariusuchis. And it’s it’s exact exciting and similar to the last graphic novel, this all goes hand in hand with a scientific project that also informs like what is like in the texts in the book. And yeah it it it brings a new new look basically to to this locality and hopefully gives gives it also some publicity because like everyone knows Messel.

speaker-1 (43:22.634)
Yeah. Yeah. Is that how you chose it? You wanna shine a light on a

speaker-2 (43:27.642)
It was one of the reasons. the other reason was that one of our authors already on the Europosaurus graphic novel, Oliver, he was curator at the collection for a while where all all the the Geiseltown material is housed. And and so it felt like a logical step after the Langenberg query to go into into this locality. And if it all goes well, there are ideas

For more of these kinds of books.

speaker-0 (43:58.541)
Nice.

speaker-1 (44:00.13)
I I I mean, we both really enjoyed your graphic novel. I like the style. It’s just something you don’t see too often. Yeah.

speaker-2 (44:07.468)
Yeah, yeah. Beyond that, there’s like a few other projects. I just recently finished another book about plesiosaurus, unfortunately only written in German.

speaker-1 (44:17.962)
speaker-0 (44:18.146)
We have some German listeners. What what’s the Plesiasor book called?

speaker-2 (44:22.35)
Title is The Welt der Plesiosaurier, Paläontologische Abenteuer, written by Achim Schwerman and Sven Sachs. Was an idea that has been like flown around in the heads of some people for a while. It’s mostly talking about like paleontology in general, like in the grand scheme of things, but plesiosaurus specifically.

With a specific focus then again on the plesiosaurs of Westphalia, which is my neck of the woods. Because there is an interesting amount of plesiosaurs we have here, four endemic genera so far. Among them the oldest plesiosaur from the Rassian, so the latest Triassic. Up

speaker-0 (45:13.006)
Nice.

speaker-2 (45:14.088)
Going then through through the early Jurassic. and we also have an early Cretaceous species here that is known from incredibly complete remains. I think it still is like the most complete Cretaceous plesiosaur of Europe. Bronchosaurus. Yeah. Known also from several specimens. Yeah, so it very important. All four have been coined fossil of the year.

speaker-0 (45:33.846)
Well.

speaker-0 (45:43.96)
my

speaker-2 (45:45.16)
recently, which is why this book was like published in a way in the first place, because okay, the idea was was around for a while, but then it became clear that this would happen, that we would get all four with basically awarded this title. And so Achim and Sven like, okay, now we have to put together a book. Now we have to make it happen. And I I did like probably over fifty

Illustrations for that for that book. Yeah.

speaker-1 (46:18.678)
That’s great. Do you know if it’ll be translated?

speaker-2 (46:21.762)
There is attempts in that direction. Like I I know Sven want and Achim want to to look into the possibility. I’m not sure if it might be too niche for for like English speaking publishers, but here’s open. Fingers crossed that it that it might work out.

speaker-1 (46:41.272)
Keep us posted and then for our German listeners, maybe check it out and let us know.

speaker-2 (46:46.39)
Yeah, yeah. for the German listeners, if you want to buy it, might be a little bit tricky in the moment because you will probably not find it on Amazon, but mostly through the museum where it’s published directly, the LVL Museum für Naturkunde in Münster. Unfortunately, the museum currently is being renovated, among other things, also their website. So they don’t have

the best online shop up and running in the moment. Of recording this might have already changed. I haven’t looked in while.

speaker-1 (47:18.062)
Maybe it’ll change.

speaker-1 (47:22.85)
Ha ha ha.

speaker-0 (47:23.754)
Also it makes it more fun. It’s like a scavenger hunt.

speaker-2 (47:27.542)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

speaker-1 (47:30.39)
It’ll be worth it.

speaker-2 (47:32.704)
that is another big project in recent years. I did a lot of illustrations for the new exhibition they’re having there. Yeah, we my region here has has a lot of really cool localities and the new exhibition is putting a little bit more emphasis on that. Like we we have everything from like huge diversity of like Devonian fish and stuff like that, Triassic marine reptiles.

speaker-0 (47:40.078)
Nice.

speaker-2 (48:02.612)
As mentioned, like all these plesiosaurs, dinosaurs too, like Vien Venato are huge, megalosaur is is from from from here. Nice. And yeah, yeah. Also like Xenozoic stuff as like like big big proboscideons and tons of ice age stuff. So much ice age stuff that it’s it’s like getting too much for the local collections at the same time like like there’s a area in

The Rhinish Mountains, that is an basically the wool region is a former Devonian reef lifted up during the Mesozoic. we actually have their Cretaceous cave sediments in there with like like dinosaurs in caves preserved. Super rare, super cool stuff. Mostly like isolated bones and teeth, but like beautiful cut-through, like like a cross-section of the ecosystem. But most

speaker-0 (48:48.086)
Let’s see

speaker-2 (48:59.584)
Mostly what you find in there is like ice age megafauna. And that way too much. Like there’s still new caves being found to this day. And the people in Munster are usually the first people to be like contacted when something like this is found because they have to like go in there and like see if there’s any important fossils. And usually there is with like thousands of cave bears. Like

speaker-0 (49:26.434)
No cheese.

speaker-2 (49:28.427)
but also rhinos, mammoths and and and reindeer and there’s some megalosaurus and stuff laying around. There’s a lot. Yeah.

speaker-1 (49:40.588)
I guess that’s a good problem to have. Too much, not too little.

speaker-2 (49:43.318)
It is a good problem to ma have. What that is, I hope, something that will people take away from from the new exhibition, like just how much has been found on their own doorstep. Mm-hmm. Which is something I I love to like do in general, like like showing people like, hey, beyond the famous stuff in the US, you know, like beyond Hell Creek, there is so much more. Like oftentimes in your own neck of the woods that you you can explore.

artistically or or in terms of research. Over here in in set collection we have a bunch of fossils from the Cretaceous of beautifully preserved fish, like on par or even better preserved than what you see in Solenhofen. wow. Like like like little sharks with all the denticles and stuff like that. And

Really incredible stuff, like some of the earliest lantern fish are in there. And you can still see the bioluminescent organs in the skin. Nobody knows about the stuff. Mostly because the this the material is largely housed in a little local museum that mostly published about this locally, all in German and all nearly a hundred years ago.

speaker-0 (50:44.334)
That’s it.

speaker-0 (51:03.192)
That isn’t an issue for getting the word app.

speaker-2 (51:05.486)
Yeah. And and it it never ye really left left this this bubble because all the people who who like published on it were well pub publishing locally. And I guess in Germany you you might have known about this stuff. actually when you are in I think a Pittsburgh, you might have also known about this because at some point the museum traded a few specimens back and forth. but yeah, it’s very

speaker-1 (51:29.58)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (51:35.424)
unknown to to even fish workers, like people who study prehistoric fish. So whenever I see a fish worker, I’m like, have you ever heard of the fishes of Zendendor Zendenhorst? look at this, look at this. There’s a few images online and it’s like beautiful. But I want more people to work on this stuff because it’s it’s an absolute treasure trove for for research. There’s I think only one English speaking paper on this material.

speaker-1 (52:04.968)
I hope more people do work on it. Yeah. Maybe a graphic novel could come out.

speaker-0 (52:09.73)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (52:12.766)
They are I mean I I wouldn’t say no.

speaker-1 (52:14.958)
Cool. Well, so for our listeners, where is the best place if they wanted to find out more about you and your work online?

speaker-2 (52:23.8)
Simply Googling me usually works watching the tr the the streams on Twitch or now also YouTube. I’m I’m doing multi streams now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. simultaneously I I I got my app and finally got got a plug in for that. Because not everyone wants to join Twitch necessarily. But most people have a Google account so can join and comment on YouTube.

So yeah, no, that’s that’s why I’m doing doing stuff every every weekend. On Fridays, we have something called flocking together where people like vote beforehand on our Discord. like what’s what what do you want to draw? And the foremost voted on things is then will be done on stream by everyone who wants to join in, each one in 20 minutes. So it’s just sketches that come out of that. It’s basically just

little little drawing exercises. And every Saturday we do something called formation pieces, where we have a huge wheel of names with more than forty localities and formations on it. And we spin it every Saturday. And wherever it lands on, we take like two weeks to like research set locality or formation, and then within one sitting, sometimes two when it takes a little bit longer.

I do like like one piece showing like a panorama of set locality as it might have appeared when it was still a living, breathing ecosystem.

speaker-1 (53:57.71)
Cool. Well that sounds great. Especially if you’re an artist.

speaker-0 (54:02.008)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-2 (54:03.318)
It’s it’s a lot of fun. And I have to thank at this point like all all friends and and colleagues that that help with that. Like just keeping the like community running, but also helping with research research and stuff, because I usually don’t have the time to do that all myself, but there is very passionate friends that that some sometimes like very forcefully are like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m I’m I’m looking into that. Go go go on.

speaker-1 (54:30.446)
It’s good. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. It was great to catch up.

speaker-0 (54:31.916)
Yeah.

speaker-2 (54:40.448)
It was a pleasure.

speaker-0 (54:42.616)
Thanks again, Yoshua, for taking your time to talk to us and explain all about.

speaker-1 (54:49.14)
art and streaming your art and your role in Netflix’s The Dinosaurus. Yeah, it’s always a pleasure to talk. So thank you.

speaker-0 (54:59.458)
And in just a moment we’ll get into our dinosaur of the day, but first one last break for our sponsors.

speaker-1 (56:07.534)
And now onto our dinosaur of the day, Ookotokia, which was a request from Tyrant King via our Patreon and Discord. So thank you. Ookotokia was an ankylosaur that lived in the Late Cretaceous and what’s now Montana in the US. It was found in the two medicine formation. It looked like a typical ankylosur. It was covered in armor, its body was low to the ground, it had that long tail with a club, a small head, it walked on all fours. It was large and heavy.

It’s estimated to grow up to sixteen feet or five meters long and weigh two point two short tons.

speaker-0 (56:40.494)
Compared to other ankylosaurs, I’d say that’s medium sized. We’re going on the family level of things. It’s way smaller than an ankylosaurus, for example.

speaker-1 (56:50.382)
Still heavy. The type and only species is O.O. Kotokia Horneri. It was named in 2013 by Paul Penkolsky. It was stored in the Museum of the Rockies for more than three decades, and then Penkolsky found it in the collections. The genus name means child of stone and refers to its body armor. And that name also honors the Blackfoot people. The fossils were found on their land.

So the name’s a combination of the Algonquin language spoken by the Blackfoot people and Latin. The species name, Hornerai, is in honor of Jack Horner who collected the type specimen. The holotype is a crushed but well-preserved skull, part of the shoulder blade, osteoderms, and armor on the neck, a large humerus or armbone, and other fragments. There were also six other specimens found that include parts of the skull, hips, arms, legs, shoulders, tail club.

And part of a cervical half ring. The skull of Ookotokia is relatively smooth compared to skulls of other ankylosaurs that lived around the same time. It had large eye sockets, and the back of the skull had some horn like protrusions. Mm-hmm. Things sticking out. It also had a large club at the end of the tail made of two big bone lumps. And maybe the club was for self defense, swinging at predators or rivals, or sexual selection. Ookotokia

speaker-0 (57:47.598)
Hey, not too bad.

speaker-1 (58:16.406)
Lived in an area that had a long, dry season and warm temperatures. Some other dinosaurs that lived around the same time and place include Ovarapterosaurs, the Nodosaur Edmontonia, Ceratopsians such as Brachyceratops, Trodontids like Troodon, Dramaosaurus such as Dramaeosaurus and Bambiraptor, and tyrannosaurids like Albertosaurus, Dyspleosaurus, and Gorgosaurus. And some other animals that lived around the same time and place include turtles, lizards, and gastropods.

speaker-0 (58:42.894)
It’s pretty fun name. I could see it being part of a song like O Koto Gia. It’s a lot of syllables too. For it’s not that long of a word, but it’s like every two letters gets a syllable. Yeah, it’s a good one. There are a lot of Algonquin names in the northern Midwest. The origins are like a lot of city names and stuff, and they’re always pleasant.

speaker-1 (58:50.368)
It is, it is.

speaker-1 (58:55.95)
It sounds nice.

speaker-1 (59:07.286)
And our fun fact is that T-Rex is now the most valuable dinosaur fossil. Again, a dethroned stegosaurus. So there was a T-Rex. Maybe you heard about this because it was all over the news. It sold at auction in July for 50.1 million US dollars. It was estimated to sell for like twenty to thirty million, so it went way higher than expected. Just for context, Apex the Stegosaurus sold for forty-four point six million US dollars in twenty twenty four. So

couple of years earlier.

speaker-0 (59:37.954)
The previous record holder and the the couple before that were both T Rex. I think maybe the most expensive T Rex was that one that ended up in Abu Dhabi. It was like thirty two million. Yeah, was that Stan? Yeah.

speaker-1 (59:49.39)
Stan. Stan. So this T-Rex was found in South Dakota, lived more than 67 million years ago, and it’s nicknamed Gus after the late Gary Gus Licking, a cattle rancher whose land it was found on. It took three years to excavate, or three field seasons to excavate Gus. They finished getting gus out of the ground in 2023. Then it took another three years to reconstruct the T-Rex, and it’s one of the largest T-Rex found.

It’s about twelve and a half feet or three point eight meters tall. It’s about thirty eight feet long. Its skull is about fifty four inches long. Yeah. And the skull’s too large and heavy to be mounted on the skeleton, so they mounted it with a reproduction of the skull.

speaker-0 (01:00:26.606)
That’s big.

speaker-0 (01:00:33.538)
Yeah, that’s pretty standard. Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (01:00:35.916)
Now Gus is about sixty one percent complete by bone count. It had thirty out of thirty two belly ribs or gastralia, which is pretty good, and a hundred and eighty three fossil bone elements.

speaker-0 (01:00:47.35)
This makes me guess that some of the bigger bones were missing. Cause if they have the bigger bone, they’ll do the completeness based on the volume of the bone and be like, Yeah, it’s missing the thirty whatever gastralia, but those barely count because they’re so small. But in this case, since they’re counting up all the gastralia, I feel like they must have been missing some of the big stuff.

speaker-1 (01:01:07.32)
I didn’t see any illustrations or anything, so I don’t know which bones they are, but I think the gastralia was highlighted because we don’t find it that often. Yeah. It’s possible Gus fought other T Rex because there’s a bite mark on top of its skull. There’s also broken ribs and other signs of injuries. And Gus was sold over the phone. There was a I think a just a few minutes bidding war and then it went for fifty million US dollars. So a lot of paleontologists in museums are not happy because, you know.

speaker-0 (01:01:16.462)
For sure.

speaker-1 (01:01:37.122)
Gus can’t be studied now, and they were priced out because the bidding started at nineteen million US dollars, and then of course went way above that.

speaker-0 (01:01:45.998)
You didn’t say who bought it, is it an anonymous buyer, I assume?

speaker-1 (01:01:49.986)
We don’t know. It was somebody bought it over the phone.

speaker-0 (01:01:53.142)
Okay. So sounds anonymous then. I mean, every once in a while, actually not even that infrequently, these do end up in museums, whether they’re purely donated or there’s some sort of agreement where they’re on display, whether or not, like you said, anybody’s gonna research it under those conditions is sort of a separate question. But hopefully it ends up in some public display of one sort or another and not just in somebody’s home. Yeah. I guess time will tell.

speaker-1 (01:02:22.264)
Yeah, we’ll see. I’m sure we’ll hear about it if that’s the case. Hopefully. And that wraps up this episode of I know Dino. Thank you so much for listening. Stay tuned in our next episode of I know Dino in a couple weeks. We’re gonna be talking about so many new sauropods. I think I counted eight we need to cover at least. Yeah. So many new dinosaurs to catch up on.

speaker-0 (01:02:41.335)
my That is a lot of sauropods.

Well certainly not me.

speaker-2 (01:02:48.782)
Okay.

speaker-1 (01:02:48.856)
Who? Who would say that?

speaker-1 (01:02:53.678)
And if you’re looking for more paleo goodness in the meantime, in between our episodes of Ino Dino, we’ll be having our next Ino Paleo episode, number forty two. We’re gonna be celebrating the number forty two in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, partly by talking about forty two fish, yes.

speaker-0 (01:03:19.916)
That’s a lot of fish. Yeah. And not just forty two like fish, forty two different species of fish.

speaker-1 (01:03:25.952)
Yes. Well genera.

speaker-0 (01:03:28.106)
That’s even more.

speaker-1 (01:03:29.71)
Yeah, so if you want to hear that episode or other bonus content, head over to patreon.com slash inodino. Thanks again, and until next time.